We don't want to be the largest firm, we want to be the finest: Amar Gupta and Vivek Chandy on JSA turning 35

To mark 35 years of its existence, JSA Advocates and Solicitors underwent a rebranding exercise, adding an infinity symbol to its logo. The symbol, among other things, signifies the "continuity of an institution built to outlast any individual". And this is a philosophy put into practice by its managing partners.

Most law firm leaders at the peak of their careers plan to keep their clients for as long as they can. Vivek Chandy and Amar Gupta plan to give theirs away.

"I could very well continue working to 75, decide that I want to move to another firm and take my book of business with me. But that's not the JSA model," says Chandy, now in his third term as joint managing partner.

Both expect to retire in five or six years, following founders Jyoti Sagar and Berjis Desai, who left their entire books with younger partners.

Gupta and Chandy spoke to Bar & Bench’s Pallavi Saluja about equity-weighted elections, a lateral hiring spree, a new GIFT City office, foreign firms and AI.

Edited excerpts follow.

Pallavi Saluja (PS): JSA is turning 35. What are the big expansion plans: offices, lateral hires, going international, technology?

Amar Gupta (AG): All of it, really. The firm is the founders' vision and we stand on their shoulders. On laterals, we are much more selective now. Book of business and economic viability matter, but buying into our culture and values matters as much. Technology has always been central to how we work. We have already onboarded Harvey and we keep evolving with it. Domestic expansion remains on the table, depending on client demand and the economic opportunity.

Vivek Chandy (VC): In the next couple of months, we are opening an office at GIFT City, which many see as sitting on the other side of the customs barrier. But there are no plans to open an office outside India. Most firms that open abroad bring work into India that is then done by people in India.

AG: We have friendly relationships with leading firms around the world. We don't feel the need for a foreign office. We service our clients in collaboration with them.

PS: Vivek, this is your third term as joint managing partner at a firm that prides itself on rotation. Why did the partnership choose continuity and why did you stand again?

VC: The powers of a joint managing partner are not great. We are first among equals. It is really partners close to retirement who can devote time to management. I actually asked Shivpriya Nanda, who was our first joint managing partner after Jyoti and Berjis, but she was busy.

AG: Let me save Vivek the embarrassment. He's being modest. He is one of our most successful partners - in size of business and client outreach - and well regarded in his practice. That is why I voted for him.

VC: It is not some big coveted post. There are brilliant younger partners, but they are busy with their practices. Both of us will retire in five or six years, so we can start slowing down and transferring our books to younger partners. I could continue working to 75, move to another firm and take my book with me. But that's not the JSA model. Jyoti and Berjis retired and left their entire book of business with younger partners and that is what we both hope to do. So with that background, I think we were probably the obvious choices. The firm is not that old. Jyoti and Berjis retired not even 10 years ago. After that, we were amongst the older partners.

PS: Isn't that a hard cut-off from clients for a senior partner at the peak of their career? How does the transition happen?

VC: That is why we are different. When I first became managing partner, I called Jyoti and asked for advice. He said: Remember, you're not running a business. It's a profession. It is not about making money for another 10 years and taking a book of business with us. It is about incentivising the younger generation to stay, knowing they will, to some extent, inherit a book of business.

PS: Who can stand for election to the executive committee, who votes and is there campaigning?

VC: Anybody can stand, but not many do. All the equity partners vote. I don't know whether there is campaigning or not. But there's no open campaigning.

AG: It is a soft outreach. We know each other well enough. Every equity partner votes their equity and we humbly accept the outcome. In a participative model, there will be winners and losers. We go the extra mile to make sure everyone feels seen and heard.

PS: Why vote by equity rather than one partner, one vote?

AG: We try to replicate the governance model of a company. We are a very large partnership - 68 partners now. For elections to the governance body, you vote with your equity. For practice and business development, where everyone has an equal stake, each partner votes equally. 

VC: More senior partners should have a larger voice in important decisions. Partners who have just joined the partnership would naturally not have that higher vote.

PS: JSA has had two women joint managing partners, but the current executive committee has no women. Should a seat be reserved for a woman partner?

AG: This is not by design. It is the outcome of the election. Women lead and sit on many of our committees. Half of our attorneys are women and a significant number of our partners are women, all strong voices.

VC: We don't think in terms of men or women. The last executive committee had two women. It just happened that five men were elected this time. There could be five women next year.

PS: The firm has grown to over 800 lawyers across 10 offices. Would you expand the executive committee beyond five?

VC: Getting five of us together is already difficult. We take calls early in the morning and late at night. Two more would make it harder. For important decisions, we go to the full partnership.

AG: We can summon a partners' meeting whenever important issues arise. You have to balance representation with moving nimbly. Five is the right number.

PS: How do decisions and disagreements play out between the joint managing partners and the committee?

AG: Day-to-day matters are handled locally. Key management decisions go to the executive committee. We rarely vote; we usually reach consensus. On some matters, I defer to Vivek or other members and they defer to me.

PS: Is there an effort to prepare the next generation of leaders?

AG: The model throws up leadership by itself. Our partners are fully empowered in their practices. Finding leadership talent is not a problem.

VC: Several people could do a better job than me. The question is whether they have the time. A joint managing partner gets nothing extra. It is only a title.

PS: JSA has been aggressive in lateral hiring in the last few years, with big teams and big-ticket partners. Was that intentional?

VC: We always wanted to grow from within, but we brought in teams where we needed support. Capital markets has been buzzing for last few years, so we brought in Madhurima Mukherjee. In competition, we brought in Nisha Kaur Uberoi. We don't do much VC work, because a lot of it is templatised, but we wanted the top end of it, which also feeds capital markets. So we hired a VC team.

So where we think there was something lacking, we go out and get people. But otherwise, the intent is to try and reward people who always work with us. We actually try to also recruit from smaller law colleges and not just from the very big law colleges, because that's something that we want to do for the profession and for society.

AG: Lateral hiring has never been only a business proposition for us. It is about deepening our specialisation. We now have a marquee competition practice and the same in capital markets. The incoming partner must share our culture and values.

PS: Will the trend continue?

VC: If we find good people in specific, developing practices who are not mercenary and will fit the culture, we will certainly look at them. But we don't want to be the largest firm. We want to be the finest law firm.

PS: What has the firm learned when a lateral didn't work out?

VC: That we should do our due diligence better. We learn from our mistakes.

PS: Lateral moves and breakaways have always shaped and reshaped the Indian legal market. How do you retain partners when other firms offer more money?

VC: It is not about money. At the equity level, our partners make a lot, because neither of us skims the cream off the top. That is probably not the case at other firms, where some senior partners take a share of others' earnings. People leave for other reasons. They don't want to retire at 65 or give up their book. They want to work until 75, or fly around the globe only in first class - things we dissuade people from doing. There are many good firms out there and they are most welcome to go if they are not happy with this model.

AG: There is no lock-in on equity. Full equity is on the table. An associate knows exactly what it takes to become an equity partner. The compensation model is also well aligned with merit and rewards talent. So those are the reasons for our attorneys to stay on. That is why we have "career JSA-walas", who have been with us forever.

PS: How do you assimilate lateral partners into JSA's culture?

VC: We have a detailed partnership deed that sets out how partners at JSA must work. We welcome people, but if someone has sharp elbows, they are not welcome here. So far, I think we've been able to maintain our culture and we're very proud of it.

PS: Can you explain the equity model?

AG: All the equity is on the table and fully divided among the partners. It is readjusted every three years through a performance review covering revenue and non-revenue contributions.

VC: It is a balanced scorecard with four quadrants, only one of which is financial. There are six bands and you can move up or down. It is completely transparent. Neither of us gets any extra incentive.

PS: How does JSA position itself against the Big Six on pricing, talent and mandates?

VC: I don't think we're a great marketing firm, because we don't have stars and the idea is not to try and develop stars. We want to develop teams. What clients love about us is this great teamwork. There's always a partner on any deal or any transaction. 

Take a data centre mandate. I do real estate and I know a little about power, water and data privacy. At another firm, I would try to do the whole matter myself to keep the revenue and the credit. Here, I would bring in six partners for each aspect and the client gets the best product. We have one balance sheet. It makes no difference if I do the work or a partner in Delhi, Chennai or Ahmedabad does it.

AG: We stand out on collaboration across specialisations and across geographies. We are not lone rangers. The incentives to collaborate are built into the model.

VC: Both of us are first-generation lawyers. We don't have the inherited relationships that many other law firm leaders have. This model lets us win anyway.

PS: The Bar Council of India now allows foreign law firms to set up in India. Threat or opportunity?

VC: We welcome them. For now, they can only practise foreign law, though the rules let them collaborate with Indian firms. A Magic Circle firm probably charges £2,000 an hour. It is not going to come to India and charge £500 an hour. They will do only a small slice of work. They are not going to set up firms of 200 or 300 people, so I don't see them competing with us.

AG: India is a complex, highly segmented market. We are confident in our position.

PS: Would JSA ever tie up with an international firm?

VC: Not with a single firm. We are too big. When we have spoken to some of the largest firms in the world, they are looking at teams of 30 or 40 lawyers, not 800-plus. Exclusive tie-ups in the past, even with much smaller Indian firms, didn't last, because one large firm cannot make up for the 20 others referring work.

AG: Each partner brings their own relationships to the firm. We would not destroy that network for one relationship.

PS: How is JSA using AI and how will it change billing in Indian law firms?

AG: Adoption is still the challenge. It is a slow process and the efficiency gains are not yet large enough to rethink pricing, though we will get there. I use AI a lot myself. But we have confidentiality and data obligations to clients, so we are taking deliberate, measured steps.

VC: We use Harvey and everybody has access. But we don't want to hand clients a product prepared by Harvey. It makes our work more efficient and that's about it.

PS: GCs expect billing to change, since their own teams use AI.

VC: If there is a benefit, we pass it on, because our billing is based on time spent. If a large diligence that took 500 hours now takes 300, we charge for 300. In fact, my concern is that we haven't factored in the crores of rupees we are paying for AI licences. We have to make that up somewhere.

AG: Efficiency gains will flow into pricing automatically. In arbitration, reviewing document dumps used to take an enormous amount of time. Now it is much quicker.

VC: We have doubled in size in the last two-and-a-half years and there is so much work coming in. So, to the extent of this efficiency, we are able to deal with the larger amounts of work.

PS: Are you hiring fewer freshers?

AG: Not at this time. A larger economy means more opportunities and more room for lawyers. We will likely grow, not shrink.

VC: We don't do campus placements. We make offers to good interns. When an intern is good, we ask them to come back and that lets us really assess them. We also give opportunities to students from smaller colleges. We look for common sense, hard work and focus.

PS: How are you handling attrition and burnout among younger associates?

VC: There is very little burnout here, because we believe in work-life balance. On transactions, people do work late, including both of us. But most of the time, hours are reasonable.

AG: Empathy for every individual is part of how we work.

PS: Where is JSA strongest today?

VC: We are a full-service firm with great partners in almost every practice and sector. When I joined as a corporate lawyer, I did everything, even banking. I got the shock of my life when Jyoti said I had to choose one practice area. Then I realised how valuable specialisation is. Our partners and associates specialise in one practice area and three or four sectors. That is our biggest strength.

PS: What do you want JSA to look like when you both retire?

AG: Bigger, more profitable and a happier place.

VC: I hope Jyoti and Berjis will still be proud of the firm they started. We are the only firm where an institution has been created with no founders or founders' families around. That is the firm of the future.

PS: What keeps you up at night?

AG: Not progress; the structure takes care of that. I want us to keep getting better in legal knowledge and standing.

VC: Sometimes I can't sleep because I can't keep up with all the new laws coming into force. If you asked me something complicated about data privacy, I couldn't answer it. What helps is that we have specialists in each of these areas.

AG: It has been a fulfilling journey. At the end of mine, I would like to find that Jyoti and Berjis remain proud of us.

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