“People used to come, smoke their chillums here and then go to Titos for their food and then back here again. It was wonderful.” This is not how interviews are supposed to go, especially not with a lawyer..Most lawyers, one can safely presume, are not supposed to have opened India’s most popular “milk bar” in the seventies; a place where people could loll about all day and listen to music..Most lawyers, one can safely presume, would not have co-founded “alternative” schools where the punishment was making children stay at home..Most lawyers, and here the presumption can be nudged ever so slightly, are not so candid about drugs and alcohol..Peter D’Souza, then, is certainly not like most lawyers..It is difficult to know where to start with someone like D’Souza. If you stick to the tried and tested chronological manner, he was an odd one from the very start. He was someone who questioned and questioned hard..“I remember quite clearly this argument about heavenly bodies spinning on their own axis. And the teacher just could not explain how or why this happened. I asked if all bodies rotate on their axis, how can Jupiter’s two moons rotate in opposite directions? He really hammered me up after that (laughs)”.Growing up in central Bombay, D’Souza’s language is every bit the catholic stereotype, his words peppered with “that bugger” and “Don’t be crazy men!”. Fond childhood memories of school move on to choosing to study science at St. Xavier’s college because, back then, “science was a big thing”. Two years into the study of science though, aged twenty-one, he decided that science was not his thing. Denied pocket money, he took up a teaching position in a Byculla school and giving tuitions on the side. That was also the time he took up the law course in Government Law College..The rise and the fall.Two years into the study of law, D’Souza “got fed up” of Bombay and shifted to Goa. At that time, Goa was a beautiful escape where he had his family’s fields for sustenance and the family home to stay in. Once again, he took up a teaching position, this time in the Don Bosco High School in Calangute. At the same time, he also wanted to start a different kind of school; usher in a different kind of “renaissance”..“The plan was to attract people in various fields like art, writing, culture, music etc. I thought that Goa was a perfect blend of the East and West. Goa, at that time, was a perfect balance of rural yet urban.”.He did eventually build a school, roping in people like Claude Alvares to join the movement. The school they built (and later shut down) sounds like some sort of utopian fantasy..“It was a non-formal open school system. The whole learning system was different. The punishment for the children was to make the children stay at home. Every child has the right to be happy and he has the instinct to learn. These two things should combine together.”.In the midst of starting a school, falling in love and getting married, D’Souza came in touch with two addictions that would drastically shape his life in the years that followed..“I became a full-blown alcoholic. I used to mix charas and booze. In the end it became crazy.”.Even though he was doing well financially, for the next decade or so, D’Souza slipped in and out of addictions until one day in the September of 1984, he realized he had had enough..“I was doing business but it was meaningless. I was 39 years old and I completely lost faith in myself. I started drinking once again. By midnight, I was riding my motor bike like a madman on the highway, shouting at the top of my voice, ‘God if you are out there, please help me”.I came back to my wife and broke down crying like a baby. She asked me “Can I do something?” and I said “You can’t but Jesus can”. I tried to go to sleep [when] suddenly I had this apparition standing in front of me. And he says, “From now onwards, I will take over. There will be problems in the future. But always remember this one thing that I’m there”.“And, the next thing that I remember is that I get up, my wife is already sleeping by my side, and I wake her up, and ask her to pray. She thought I was drunk.Anyway, I repeated her prayers and I went back to sleep. And I slept like a baby. That morning I got up absolutely fresh, and just so alive!”.He pauses for a few minutes here, perhaps savoring the memory. It is hard not to believe him, and the candidness makes incredulity all the more difficult to come by. He goes on to talk about the Milky Bar and this and that, the words rushing out. It is a few minutes before we get to the really interesting part – how Peter D’Souza became a lawyer..My cousin Vinny.Sometime after getting his degree, D’Souza attended an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting where he met a couple that was seeking counseling. The husband was an alcoholic, and towards the end of the meeting, D’Souza said that if the couple ever required help, he was there..“A few months later I get a post card from the same fellow saying that I’m in jail. He had been arrested for murder, and used his last 50 paise for sending the postcard.So I went to meet him. He told me his story and I casually asked him who his lawyer was. And he said ‘I don’t have a lawyer’. Then I told him I am a lawyer and he hired me! [That was] my first case! (laughs).”.To hear him describe his first appearance is to see boyish enthusiasm, cheeky laughter mixed with an infinite sense of wonder. There is a very real joy in his voice when he describes the cross-examination, the circumstances, and his voice reaches a high-pitch as he narrates the memories..“You have seen that movie “My cousin Vinny”? I still laugh when I watch that movie. It was just like that. I never had shoes; I had to buy a bloody pair of black shoes. I didn’t have a black coat, I used my father-in-law’s coat. Mind you he is double my size (laughs). I didn’t know anything at all. And I played the same role as Vinny, always posing like a big shot lawyer. People were laughing at my broken Konkani! Everybody thought I was a Bombay lawyer, and I let that game go on! Anyway, I got a fantastic acquittal. And that is how I started my practice.”.The charsi lawyer.This was in 1989. By the end of the year, D’Souza had started taking up a number of narcotic cases, and meeting with considerable success. Partly because of his dressing sense and partly because of his clients, he began to be known as the charsi lawyer. Even with his broken Konkani, and his lack of experience in the profession, he quickly began gaining a reputation as an excellent trial court lawyer. With good reason..“Drug cases are usually open and shut. I remember cross-examining police officers and getting them to admit that what they had said earlier was a lie. I have had several senior custom officers cry [during cross-examination]”.Probe him on the methods that he uses, and he says that the first thing to be done is to read all the evidence thoroughly. And then read it again..“When it comes to cross-examination, you have to get that witness to eat out of your hand. That’s what I have always believed. I get wild at people who try to attack a witness. You should never become a client’s client. I have these bets with my juniors, that I will make this witness laugh. And I would win!”.Humorous though his anecdotes may be, but they do little to hide the finely nuanced understanding of how law works. It is an understanding that D’Souza certainly has.. He has dealt first hand with police personnel who fabricate evidence to ensure convictions, lawyers who deliberately submit false evidence to gain acquittals, and clients who are more than willing to pay any sum required to keep them out of jail. It is something that irks him to this very day, and his inability to cave in to demands has often resulted in him losing clients..“My conditions are that I won’t put a false case, I will not put false evidence. I do not tamper with the witnesses. Nothing. And if you try and bribe the witness, then you take your bloody case and get out. You don’t need a lawyer, you need a bloody pimp men! Here on this table, I have had bundles of rupees placed before me. I told them to pack it off.”.An (un) balanced Act .It is not only the ethics of the legal profession that D’Souza finds disturbing; he has been a constant critic of the law itself, more specifically the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances Act of 1985 (NDPS). Sunil Dutt whose very son, Sanjay Dutt, was convicted of possessing drugs, was one of the principal proponents of the Act..“Can you imagine [Sunil Dutt’s] mentality? His son is a drug addict. He hates [drug addiction]! So where is the balance?”.But the possible lack of objectivity while framing the law is just one part of the problem; D’Souza also argues that the Act, in its current form, actually encourages the use of soft drugs. The solution he offers is equally radical – legalizing marijuana.. “If they legalise [soft drugs], it will be open. What is happening is that the youth try these soft drugs and do so in hiding. They become easy targets for all these pushers. By 18-20 they are hard-core addicts. By 22-23, they want to stop it, but they can’t. And those peoples who manage to stop after this age, they have no skills at all. Nothing. Boom! Back to drugs.”.Fighting the Bar and the Bench.As the interview progresses, it becomes clear that swimming against the current is something that D’Souza derives great joy from. He recounts how he once took on the senior counsel Ram Jethmalani in open court, when Jethmalani was defending one of the accused. D’Souza was the lawyer for the other accused..“[Ram Jethmalani] took the whole day. Then sometime around 4:30, my chance came and I wanted to raise several legal points that had not yet been raised. Five minutes into my arguments, he interrupts and says that these arguments have already been made. I got real angry, “Mr. Jethmalani, I have not opened my mouth the entire day. This is your first drug case; you are carrying ten years on your head. Right now, I have 300 years on my shoulders. If you have finished your arguments, that is the door behind. Please do not interfere.” Jethmalani apologized and sat down.”.But it is not members of the Bar who were singled out; there were times when D’Souza took on the Bench as well. One such incident came when a High Court senior officer was accused of sexually harassing an officer in the Goa Bench of the High Court..A day later, there was this social gathering of lawyers and judges. And my junior and I unfurled this banner saying, “Sexual Harassment: No Committee, no enquiry”.I then filed a writ petition in the High Court. Do you know what the final judgment was? A committee would be formed but it would not have any insider on it. And no action was taken against the officer; he was simply transferred out..When asked why there is not enough action taken against the Bench, D’Souza says that part of the problem lies in the exercise of contempt laws. Like any number of topics, it is a subject on which D’Souza has his own views..“No freedom fighter won independence for the country by saying sorry. They went to jail. They spent months in jail. If you believe in what you are doing, be ready to go to jail for it.”.“Honesty. Absolute honesty” .Over the years, D’Souza has built a large practice and employs a number of juniors. On what he looks for, there is great clarity..“Honesty. Absolute honesty. I don’t want any skills. You be honest, and deal with your clients honestly. Also, none of my juniors address the judge as “Your Lordship”. The British left this country years ago, why are we mindlessly following this?” Any of my juniors use this term, and they are out of the office!”.There are other rules as well..“I normally do not take cases involving rape, or anti-woman offences. That is the only policy we have. And this is not because of what the accused may have done but rather our own prejudices! Our prejudices should not affect the accused. He is entitled to a fair trial, to the best defense.”.When asked whether he has any advice for those who want to join the profession, there is one gem that particularly stands out,.“You have to be a learner all the time. That is one principle I tell everybody. Learn a new language, learn something new every year. If you do not know how to write with the left hand, learn how to bloody write with your left hand!”.(This interview was conducted in Goa earlier this year)
“People used to come, smoke their chillums here and then go to Titos for their food and then back here again. It was wonderful.” This is not how interviews are supposed to go, especially not with a lawyer..Most lawyers, one can safely presume, are not supposed to have opened India’s most popular “milk bar” in the seventies; a place where people could loll about all day and listen to music..Most lawyers, one can safely presume, would not have co-founded “alternative” schools where the punishment was making children stay at home..Most lawyers, and here the presumption can be nudged ever so slightly, are not so candid about drugs and alcohol..Peter D’Souza, then, is certainly not like most lawyers..It is difficult to know where to start with someone like D’Souza. If you stick to the tried and tested chronological manner, he was an odd one from the very start. He was someone who questioned and questioned hard..“I remember quite clearly this argument about heavenly bodies spinning on their own axis. And the teacher just could not explain how or why this happened. I asked if all bodies rotate on their axis, how can Jupiter’s two moons rotate in opposite directions? He really hammered me up after that (laughs)”.Growing up in central Bombay, D’Souza’s language is every bit the catholic stereotype, his words peppered with “that bugger” and “Don’t be crazy men!”. Fond childhood memories of school move on to choosing to study science at St. Xavier’s college because, back then, “science was a big thing”. Two years into the study of science though, aged twenty-one, he decided that science was not his thing. Denied pocket money, he took up a teaching position in a Byculla school and giving tuitions on the side. That was also the time he took up the law course in Government Law College..The rise and the fall.Two years into the study of law, D’Souza “got fed up” of Bombay and shifted to Goa. At that time, Goa was a beautiful escape where he had his family’s fields for sustenance and the family home to stay in. Once again, he took up a teaching position, this time in the Don Bosco High School in Calangute. At the same time, he also wanted to start a different kind of school; usher in a different kind of “renaissance”..“The plan was to attract people in various fields like art, writing, culture, music etc. I thought that Goa was a perfect blend of the East and West. Goa, at that time, was a perfect balance of rural yet urban.”.He did eventually build a school, roping in people like Claude Alvares to join the movement. The school they built (and later shut down) sounds like some sort of utopian fantasy..“It was a non-formal open school system. The whole learning system was different. The punishment for the children was to make the children stay at home. Every child has the right to be happy and he has the instinct to learn. These two things should combine together.”.In the midst of starting a school, falling in love and getting married, D’Souza came in touch with two addictions that would drastically shape his life in the years that followed..“I became a full-blown alcoholic. I used to mix charas and booze. In the end it became crazy.”.Even though he was doing well financially, for the next decade or so, D’Souza slipped in and out of addictions until one day in the September of 1984, he realized he had had enough..“I was doing business but it was meaningless. I was 39 years old and I completely lost faith in myself. I started drinking once again. By midnight, I was riding my motor bike like a madman on the highway, shouting at the top of my voice, ‘God if you are out there, please help me”.I came back to my wife and broke down crying like a baby. She asked me “Can I do something?” and I said “You can’t but Jesus can”. I tried to go to sleep [when] suddenly I had this apparition standing in front of me. And he says, “From now onwards, I will take over. There will be problems in the future. But always remember this one thing that I’m there”.“And, the next thing that I remember is that I get up, my wife is already sleeping by my side, and I wake her up, and ask her to pray. She thought I was drunk.Anyway, I repeated her prayers and I went back to sleep. And I slept like a baby. That morning I got up absolutely fresh, and just so alive!”.He pauses for a few minutes here, perhaps savoring the memory. It is hard not to believe him, and the candidness makes incredulity all the more difficult to come by. He goes on to talk about the Milky Bar and this and that, the words rushing out. It is a few minutes before we get to the really interesting part – how Peter D’Souza became a lawyer..My cousin Vinny.Sometime after getting his degree, D’Souza attended an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting where he met a couple that was seeking counseling. The husband was an alcoholic, and towards the end of the meeting, D’Souza said that if the couple ever required help, he was there..“A few months later I get a post card from the same fellow saying that I’m in jail. He had been arrested for murder, and used his last 50 paise for sending the postcard.So I went to meet him. He told me his story and I casually asked him who his lawyer was. And he said ‘I don’t have a lawyer’. Then I told him I am a lawyer and he hired me! [That was] my first case! (laughs).”.To hear him describe his first appearance is to see boyish enthusiasm, cheeky laughter mixed with an infinite sense of wonder. There is a very real joy in his voice when he describes the cross-examination, the circumstances, and his voice reaches a high-pitch as he narrates the memories..“You have seen that movie “My cousin Vinny”? I still laugh when I watch that movie. It was just like that. I never had shoes; I had to buy a bloody pair of black shoes. I didn’t have a black coat, I used my father-in-law’s coat. Mind you he is double my size (laughs). I didn’t know anything at all. And I played the same role as Vinny, always posing like a big shot lawyer. People were laughing at my broken Konkani! Everybody thought I was a Bombay lawyer, and I let that game go on! Anyway, I got a fantastic acquittal. And that is how I started my practice.”.The charsi lawyer.This was in 1989. By the end of the year, D’Souza had started taking up a number of narcotic cases, and meeting with considerable success. Partly because of his dressing sense and partly because of his clients, he began to be known as the charsi lawyer. Even with his broken Konkani, and his lack of experience in the profession, he quickly began gaining a reputation as an excellent trial court lawyer. With good reason..“Drug cases are usually open and shut. I remember cross-examining police officers and getting them to admit that what they had said earlier was a lie. I have had several senior custom officers cry [during cross-examination]”.Probe him on the methods that he uses, and he says that the first thing to be done is to read all the evidence thoroughly. And then read it again..“When it comes to cross-examination, you have to get that witness to eat out of your hand. That’s what I have always believed. I get wild at people who try to attack a witness. You should never become a client’s client. I have these bets with my juniors, that I will make this witness laugh. And I would win!”.Humorous though his anecdotes may be, but they do little to hide the finely nuanced understanding of how law works. It is an understanding that D’Souza certainly has.. He has dealt first hand with police personnel who fabricate evidence to ensure convictions, lawyers who deliberately submit false evidence to gain acquittals, and clients who are more than willing to pay any sum required to keep them out of jail. It is something that irks him to this very day, and his inability to cave in to demands has often resulted in him losing clients..“My conditions are that I won’t put a false case, I will not put false evidence. I do not tamper with the witnesses. Nothing. And if you try and bribe the witness, then you take your bloody case and get out. You don’t need a lawyer, you need a bloody pimp men! Here on this table, I have had bundles of rupees placed before me. I told them to pack it off.”.An (un) balanced Act .It is not only the ethics of the legal profession that D’Souza finds disturbing; he has been a constant critic of the law itself, more specifically the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances Act of 1985 (NDPS). Sunil Dutt whose very son, Sanjay Dutt, was convicted of possessing drugs, was one of the principal proponents of the Act..“Can you imagine [Sunil Dutt’s] mentality? His son is a drug addict. He hates [drug addiction]! So where is the balance?”.But the possible lack of objectivity while framing the law is just one part of the problem; D’Souza also argues that the Act, in its current form, actually encourages the use of soft drugs. The solution he offers is equally radical – legalizing marijuana.. “If they legalise [soft drugs], it will be open. What is happening is that the youth try these soft drugs and do so in hiding. They become easy targets for all these pushers. By 18-20 they are hard-core addicts. By 22-23, they want to stop it, but they can’t. And those peoples who manage to stop after this age, they have no skills at all. Nothing. Boom! Back to drugs.”.Fighting the Bar and the Bench.As the interview progresses, it becomes clear that swimming against the current is something that D’Souza derives great joy from. He recounts how he once took on the senior counsel Ram Jethmalani in open court, when Jethmalani was defending one of the accused. D’Souza was the lawyer for the other accused..“[Ram Jethmalani] took the whole day. Then sometime around 4:30, my chance came and I wanted to raise several legal points that had not yet been raised. Five minutes into my arguments, he interrupts and says that these arguments have already been made. I got real angry, “Mr. Jethmalani, I have not opened my mouth the entire day. This is your first drug case; you are carrying ten years on your head. Right now, I have 300 years on my shoulders. If you have finished your arguments, that is the door behind. Please do not interfere.” Jethmalani apologized and sat down.”.But it is not members of the Bar who were singled out; there were times when D’Souza took on the Bench as well. One such incident came when a High Court senior officer was accused of sexually harassing an officer in the Goa Bench of the High Court..A day later, there was this social gathering of lawyers and judges. And my junior and I unfurled this banner saying, “Sexual Harassment: No Committee, no enquiry”.I then filed a writ petition in the High Court. Do you know what the final judgment was? A committee would be formed but it would not have any insider on it. And no action was taken against the officer; he was simply transferred out..When asked why there is not enough action taken against the Bench, D’Souza says that part of the problem lies in the exercise of contempt laws. Like any number of topics, it is a subject on which D’Souza has his own views..“No freedom fighter won independence for the country by saying sorry. They went to jail. They spent months in jail. If you believe in what you are doing, be ready to go to jail for it.”.“Honesty. Absolute honesty” .Over the years, D’Souza has built a large practice and employs a number of juniors. On what he looks for, there is great clarity..“Honesty. Absolute honesty. I don’t want any skills. You be honest, and deal with your clients honestly. Also, none of my juniors address the judge as “Your Lordship”. The British left this country years ago, why are we mindlessly following this?” Any of my juniors use this term, and they are out of the office!”.There are other rules as well..“I normally do not take cases involving rape, or anti-woman offences. That is the only policy we have. And this is not because of what the accused may have done but rather our own prejudices! Our prejudices should not affect the accused. He is entitled to a fair trial, to the best defense.”.When asked whether he has any advice for those who want to join the profession, there is one gem that particularly stands out,.“You have to be a learner all the time. That is one principle I tell everybody. Learn a new language, learn something new every year. If you do not know how to write with the left hand, learn how to bloody write with your left hand!”.(This interview was conducted in Goa earlier this year)
